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Is there a limitation for the number of minutes the preconditioning will run?

There is only the SOC limitation of >24% and it will run until battery temp achieves >20C from the press release "The upgrade process encompasses the satellite navigation system, necessary because the conditioning feature automatically preheats the EV6鈥檚 battery when the driver sets a DC fast charger as a destination into the navigation system, the battery temperature is below 21 degrees, and the state-of-charge is 24% or higher. The conditioning deactivates automatically when the battery reaches its optimal operating temperature. After that, customers can experience the improved charging performance."
-source Kia in the EU: Kia offers EV6 software update for faster cold-weather charging
I have spoken of two different ways to heat the battery.
1.) Using the app while stationary via the pre-heating function, the "pre-air conditioning". Unfortunately, this only runs for 15 minutes at Kia and then switches itself off.
2.) The preconditioning of the battery when approaching an HPC charger.

To 1.) This is your possibility to warm up the battery while stationary without the upgrade, at least at the same speed as if you had the upgrade and were driving.

On 2.) There also seems to be a time component here. The preconditioning has never been on for me for longer than 50 minutes, although I have driven long distances to an HPC and the battery was not 20 degrees at the destination (HPC). However, the car is heated up by 15 degrees in the 50 minutes and in almost all cases reaches the 20 degrees at which the pre-heating would be switched off anyway.
Only when it was really cold (for Northern Germany) with -5 degrees and I was driving on the autobahn at 150km/h did the wind cool the battery down so much that I arrived at the charger with 18 degrees, even though I had been preheated for 50 minutes.
 

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2022 Snow White EV6 Light (58 kWh RWD)
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I have spoken of two different ways to heat the battery.
1.) Using the app while stationary via the pre-heating function, the "pre-air conditioning". Unfortunately, this only runs for 15 minutes at Kia and then switches itself off.
2.) The preconditioning of the battery when approaching an HPC charger.

To 1.) This is your possibility to warm up the battery while stationary without the upgrade, at least at the same speed as if you had the upgrade and were driving.

On 2.) There also seems to be a time component here. The preconditioning has never been on for me for longer than 50 minutes, although I have driven long distances to an HPC and the battery was not 20 degrees at the destination (HPC). However, the car is heated up by 15 degrees in the 50 minutes and in almost all cases reaches the 20 degrees at which the pre-heating would be switched off anyway.
Only when it was really cold (for Northern Germany) with -5 degrees and I was driving on the autobahn at 150km/h did the wind cool the battery down so much that I arrived at the charger with 18 degrees, even though I had been preheated for 50 minutes.
Thank you these details are very helpful. I too find the wind underneath the car seems to cool down some of the cells selectively depending on how close they are to presumably the bottom of the car. In fact I regularly see a distinction between certain module temperatures. I track this occasionally using and ODBII linked to Car Scanner, which you are also presumably familiar with since you're referencing battery temperatures too. Anyway in Car Scanner there is a nice visuallization for the overall pack temperature status and it shows a slightly troubling trend where the min and max battery temperature isn't particularly close together, definitely as much as 10 C apart and but frequently 5 C apart. Why would this be troublesome? Well if we think this is going to do this for years and 100's of thousands of km/mi then we should assume a kind of assymetric degradation of the hotter modules but this would inevitably lead to slightly premature overall pack degradation vs if all the modules were more or less the same temperature, that is within a couple degrees C of one another.

It's a big enough problem in my mind I've considered insulating the bottom of the car with thin layer. Even just a coating of rubberized paint might be enough to lower the conductive and radiative heat transfer coefficients and possibly even out these temperature discrepancies. Or, you know, sell the car and buy something with better thermal management, like a Tesla.
 

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I'm sorry, did I state how much I paid for my car?? The Out the Door price for EV6s has most definitely been over $50k for most buyers, so I used that for a reference.
You paid $42.5k for your EV6? Must have been the "Light" model that has so little demand for obvious reasons. It's not even available for 2023.
LOL maybe they ASSumed that the only EV6 trim available for sale was the Light trim...
 

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It's a big enough problem in my mind I've considered insulating the bottom of the car with thin layer. Even just a coating of rubberized paint might be enough to lower the conductive and radiative heat transfer coefficients and possibly even out these temperature discrepancies. Or, you know, sell the car and buy something with better thermal management, like a Tesla.
I would think twice about doing something under the car with the possibility of affecting the thermal properties of the battery. If for some reason your battery ends up with a problem you can be almost positive that KIA would claim that your "modification" was the cause.
 

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Here in Ontario Canada they charge by the minute. So imagine driving up in winter and sitting there waiting for the car to draw a reasonable amount of energy? To add insult to injury, I've heard that Electrify Canada charges you a different rate depending on what your car can theoretically accept. So 0-350kW is charged at 57c per minute even if your car is getting 60kW because it's cold out. 0-90kW is 27c. What's the problem with actually charging per kW???

Oh well, I'm kind of glad the BEVs are trickling into Canada. Nobody can seem to get one. And the prices are going through the roof. I think in many places the charging is so expensive it's as much as just filling with petrol when you compare miles/kms you get per dollar spent.
Measurements Canada is the hold up as you can dispense electricity by the kWh hour since it鈥檒l count as an electricity provider (which most companies aren鈥檛. Only the hydro companies are providers). So basically it鈥檚 legalese that鈥檚 holding it back. They are supposedly working on a new amendment to the rule.

Also, DC charging is always going to be more expensive. The ideaI that you should be doing Level 2 charging while you鈥檙e out and about. I realize that鈥檚 not always possible (broken charger, occupied charger, place you鈥檙e visiting doesn鈥檛 have any, or you鈥檙e just not the type of person that wants to deal with it).

Where I am, there鈥檚 enough public L2s and low powered DCFCs (50kW) that you could hop from place to place, charging when the car is parked whether it鈥檚 the gym/community centre, banking, supermarket or shopping centre. Given I drive less than 50km a day, a single hour鈥檚 charge (6-7kWh) will nearly cover the daily trip (~30-40km depending summer or winter). At one Tesla Destination chargers, it output 9.6kW so I gained nearly 12% battery after that one hour! (Most J1772s are 6.6kW or 6.6kW shared). The 50kW at the supermarket works well for those who arrive nearly empty (though that鈥檚 quite the gamble). There鈥檚 a 40 min limit though so turnover is higher.
 

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2022 Snow White EV6 Light (58 kWh RWD)
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I would think twice about doing something under the car with the possibility of affecting the thermal properties of the battery. If for some reason your battery ends up with a problem you can be almost positive that KIA would claim that your "modification" was the cause.
Absolutely valid points. But a shoddy thermal management system ain鈥檛 so hot either is it? Doesn鈥檛 it seem like leaving the battery completely stock is going to lead to something bad with degradation unless there are literally two cell chemistries in that pack, one that likes to be 5-10C hotter than the other and Kia arranged them in staggered modules corresponding to these systematic temperature differences? Of course that鈥檚 implausible so we can only assume what鈥檚 going on is differential heat transfer at a module level leading to basically two thermally distinctive life cycles for identical cells and we (EV6 owners and Kia) will all be surprised and possibly not delighted by the long term results.
 

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Absolutely valid points. But a shoddy thermal management system ain鈥檛 so hot either is it? Doesn鈥檛 it seem like leaving the battery completely stock is going to lead to something bad with degradation unless there are literally two cell chemistries in that pack, one that likes to be 5-10C hotter than the other and Kia arranged them in staggered modules corresponding to these systematic temperature differences? Of course that鈥檚 implausible so we can only assume what鈥檚 going on is differential heat transfer at a module level leading to basically two thermally distinctive life cycles for identical cells and we (EV6 owners and Kia) will all be surprised and possibly not delighted by the long term results.
There seems to be up to 10 degrees Celsius temperature between battery modules. This is due to the way the packs are constructed and that only one side of each pouch makes contact with the cooling plate. I expect the batteries in the center to get warmer comparing with the ones on the sides of the pack. All the cells should be identical, only that some of them get better thermal management.
 

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Measurements Canada is the hold up as you can dispense electricity by the kWh hour since it鈥檒l count as an electricity provider (which most companies aren鈥檛. Only the hydro companies are providers). So basically it鈥檚 legalese that鈥檚 holding it back. They are supposedly working on a new amendment to the rule.

Also, DC charging is always going to be more expensive. The ideaI that you should be doing Level 2 charging while you鈥檙e out and about. I realize that鈥檚 not always possible (broken charger, occupied charger, place you鈥檙e visiting doesn鈥檛 have any, or you鈥檙e just not the type of person that wants to deal with it).

Where I am, there鈥檚 enough public L2s and low powered DCFCs (50kW) that you could hop from place to place, charging when the car is parked whether it鈥檚 the gym/community centre, banking, supermarket or shopping centre. Given I drive less than 50km a day, a single hour鈥檚 charge (6-7kWh) will nearly cover the daily trip (~30-40km depending summer or winter). At one Tesla Destination chargers, it output 9.6kW so I gained nearly 12% battery after that one hour! (Most J1772s are 6.6kW or 6.6kW shared). The 50kW at the supermarket works well for those who arrive nearly empty (though that鈥檚 quite the gamble). There鈥檚 a 40 min limit though so turnover is higher.
that's interesting re: hydro and measurements Canada. They really need to sort out these issues out for longer travel though.
 

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that's interesting re: hydro and measurements Canada. They really need to sort out these issues out for longer travel though.
No doubt.

And also, once we switch to kWh pricing, how to set idle fees.

Will companies charge more for 350kW chargers than 150kW chargers if it's kWh pricing? (with the idea that you pay more for less time... but how would that translate in the winter - would no one use the 350kW because unless you have pre-conditioning, no one wants to pay the higher pricing scheme?). Or will they still charge the flat rate so arriving at a station is still a crapshoot because a 50kW car can be charging at the 350kW charger.
 

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Discussion Starter · #72 ·
No doubt.

And also, once we switch to kWh pricing, how to set idle fees.

Will companies charge more for 350kW chargers than 150kW chargers if it's kWh pricing? (with the idea that you pay more for less time... but how would that translate in the winter - would no one use the 350kW because unless you have pre-conditioning, no one wants to pay the higher pricing scheme?). Or will they still charge the flat rate so arriving at a station is still a crapshoot because a 50kW car can be charging at the 350kW charger.
I don't see why the price should be higher depending on the speed of charge, the faster the charge, the more people can get charged, and the more kilowatt-hours of electricity sold.

I do believe this type of electricity should be cheap electricity, the really should be an incentive for people to switch from diesel and petrol to EV. There's already enough complications around charge points, AC and DC charging, numerous maps and charger apps and membership cards, variances in kilowatt hour chargers, and understanding percentage charged to range estimations. It's a whole different ball game to just go into the garage and filling up with some kind of fuel. Then there is the cost of the cars and selves. If governments and climate change activists want people to move to electric cars something's got to change. Mechanisms, processes the whole thing needs simplified for the average person. Throwing preheating in... it's just another complication.
 

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I don't see why the price should be higher depending on the speed of charge, the faster the charge, the more people can get charged, and the more kilowatt-hours of electricity sold.

I do believe this type of electricity should be cheap electricity, the really should be an incentive for people to switch from diesel and petrol to EV. There's already enough complications around charge points, AC and DC charging, numerous maps and charger apps and membership cards, variances in kilowatt hour chargers, and understanding percentage charged to range estimations. It's a whole different ball game to just go into the garage and filling up with some kind of fuel. Then there is the cost of the cars and selves. If governments and climate change activists want people to move to electric cars something's got to change. Mechanisms, processes the whole thing needs simplified for the average person. Throwing preheating in... it's just another complication.
That's how the Gridserve in Exeter works where I live. Excellent 14 bay hub. It's split into 50kw, 150kw and 350kw if I remember correctly - the slower ones are cheaper than the fast ones.
 

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I don't see why the price should be higher depending on the speed of charge, the faster the charge, the more people can get charged, and the more kilowatt-hours of electricity sold.

I do believe this type of electricity should be cheap electricity, the really should be an incentive for people to switch from diesel and petrol to EV. There's already enough complications around charge points, AC and DC charging, numerous maps and charger apps and membership cards, variances in kilowatt hour chargers, and understanding percentage charged to range estimations. It's a whole different ball game to just go into the garage and filling up with some kind of fuel. Then there is the cost of the cars and selves. If governments and climate change activists want people to move to electric cars something's got to change. Mechanisms, processes the whole thing needs simplified for the average person. Throwing preheating in... it's just another complication.
Without preheating, the EV6 charges really slow in the cold (worse than a lot of other EVs). If they enabled pre-heating through Carplay/Android maps, then it would be much better. Right now, the economics of charge points are terrible and thats slowing down the rollout of infrastructure. EA, EVGO, and Charge Point are pretty small companies relatively so they are being cautious about the roll outs. DC fast chargers can be extremely costly to deploy.
 

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I've done an Ionity charge a couple of times with and without the preheating. It definitely makes a difference. With preheating it started at 100 KW and maxed at 170KW and I was less than 30 mins 20 to 80 at zero degrees C. I just had time to pop in to maccy Ds and eat my meal in the car. have a ciggy and then was ready to go. Without, it started at 40 and took fricking ages to even get to 80 and never really went above it.
 

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I鈥檓 surprised that no one has mentioned the use of HVAC during DC charging. Bjorn discussed this in one of his videos when talking about the car coldgating.
Apparently the car will use the HVAC to warm the battery while charging, so after starting slow the charge rate will improve as the battery warms up.
If you are sitting in the car with the heater on this doesn鈥檛 happen, as the car will prioritise warming the car interior rather than the battery.
So turn off the heater for best charging performance !
 

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Well, when you're driving, you're not pulling that much power. I reckon you're using less than what a DCFC would've input. In one of Bjorn Nyland's video, at 70km/h, he was only pulling between 18 and 25kW. At 100km/h, I wager it's not much more than 50kW. The battery won't warm up (if anything, it'll just stay lukewarm).

Climbing a mountain at 120km/h, that's when I was pulling around 168kW, still less than the max speed of that ABB charger.

So driving on the motorway, doesn't really heat up the battery - the EV6 is quite efficient. Couple that with the HVAC scavenging heat from the components to heat the cabin, at the motors and battery will remain cool. This is why we need that pre-conditioning mode.
Driving on the highway actually cools my c40s battery.
 

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I've done an Ionity charge a couple of times with and without the preheating. It definitely makes a difference. With preheating it started at 100 KW and maxed at 170KW and I was less than 30 mins 20 to 80 at zero degrees C. I just had time to pop in to maccy Ds and eat my meal in the car. have a ciggy and then was ready to go. Without, it started at 40 and took fricking ages to even get to 80 and never really went above it.
How long was the preheating turnen on before charging? Was it on highway or in the city?
 

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How long was the preheating turned on before charging? Was it on highway or in the city?
Probably no more than 10 mins. Ambient was about 0 degrees C. The total travel distance was about 25 miles on the highway. It came on near the start of the journey and went off just over halfway.
 

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Probably no more than 10 mins. Ambient was about 0 degrees C. The total travel distance was about 25 miles on the highway. It came on near the start of the journey and went off just over halfway.
Thanks. Here is mine expirence. I have EV2022 with upadate from december 2022. The preheating should work. I was starting navigation to DC charging station about 20 min before reaching it. On highway with 120/130 km/h (sorry Europe ;) ) speed, tempertur about 0 celcius degree. Charging speed start about 60 kwh , then maybe went up to 70-80 kWh. On the same charging point in summer / spring , the same car, it was 200 kwh. So it was disappointing for me. Maybe car needs more time for preheating. And I can not use on the same time car Nav and Apple CarPlay - google. When I start google maps then it cancel car Nav.
 
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